Comments on: Jesus– Changing the World One Heart, One Structure at a Time http://consumingjesus.org/2009/04/05/jesus-changing-the-world-one-heart-one-structure-at-a-time/ Beyond Race and Class Issues In a Consumer Church Tue, 17 Apr 2012 22:52:58 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3 By: Bryan Dormaier http://consumingjesus.org/2009/04/05/jesus-changing-the-world-one-heart-one-structure-at-a-time/comment-page-1/#comment-389 Bryan Dormaier Tue, 14 Apr 2009 05:35:25 +0000 http://consumingjesus.org/2009/04/05/jesus-changing-the-world-one-heart-one-structure-at-a-time/#comment-389 In response to your first question Kelsi, I see not just the assumption that race problems disappear when one becomes a Christian, but the assumption that any problem of sin automatically disappears as us not understanding the lifelong process of sanctification. That is, much of the problem is that we as evangelicals see becoming a Christ follower as a one time decision - you say the prayer and you are in. Taking the ideas of discipleship and sanctification seriously brings us to something much different. In one regard, it is tough to use race relations, personal piety, or any other thing as a sure mark of authentic experience of Christ. Yet it is my role as pastor to sneakily push and prod, to know when to challenge and when to allow something to lay there latent. And this is all a part of those things of discipleship and sanctification. As a church I see the issue of addressing structural evil (a term I do not plan on using as a pastor) as a sticky business. On the one hand, we are to be advocates of God's Kingdom way. In that way I am optimistic that we are to readily address these issues. On the other hand is the pessimistic side of me, which wonders to what level the church really can influence its surrounding culture. This isn't even a discussion if we aren't in America, where the church is established and in a place of power. When I balance my optimism and pessimism, I come to a place of saying we definitely should be at work in these issues, but what place do I have to speak to culture, if our church isn't even getting it. That's a long way of saying, I am all for addressing structural issues, but I wonder if we might be better suited to start by addressing those issues in our churches. In response to your first question Kelsi, I see not just the assumption that race problems disappear when one becomes a Christian, but the assumption that any problem of sin automatically disappears as us not understanding the lifelong process of sanctification.

That is, much of the problem is that we as evangelicals see becoming a Christ follower as a one time decision – you say the prayer and you are in. Taking the ideas of discipleship and sanctification seriously brings us to something much different.

In one regard, it is tough to use race relations, personal piety, or any other thing as a sure mark of authentic experience of Christ. Yet it is my role as pastor to sneakily push and prod, to know when to challenge and when to allow something to lay there latent. And this is all a part of those things of discipleship and sanctification.

As a church I see the issue of addressing structural evil (a term I do not plan on using as a pastor) as a sticky business. On the one hand, we are to be advocates of God’s Kingdom way. In that way I am optimistic that we are to readily address these issues. On the other hand is the pessimistic side of me, which wonders to what level the church really can influence its surrounding culture. This isn’t even a discussion if we aren’t in America, where the church is established and in a place of power. When I balance my optimism and pessimism, I come to a place of saying we definitely should be at work in these issues, but what place do I have to speak to culture, if our church isn’t even getting it.

That’s a long way of saying, I am all for addressing structural issues, but I wonder if we might be better suited to start by addressing those issues in our churches.

]]> By: Rachel O'Brien http://consumingjesus.org/2009/04/05/jesus-changing-the-world-one-heart-one-structure-at-a-time/comment-page-1/#comment-388 Rachel O'Brien Tue, 07 Apr 2009 20:35:44 +0000 http://consumingjesus.org/2009/04/05/jesus-changing-the-world-one-heart-one-structure-at-a-time/#comment-388 Thank you ladies. Chelsea; I am inspired to know that those outside seminary and other institutions also account for systemic evil. I agree that as much as we may desire a single soul saved, we cannot reduce our efforts to those who subscribe to our "system", because we do so often turn our faith into a system, our churches into factories and our brothers and sisters into stepping stones to spiritual ascension. While we know hypothetically that racism exists I am still unconvinced as Chelsea said that our churches are in the business of self reflection of biases. While we overtly encourage memorization of scripture and attending Sunday service we subvert and ignore questions of reconciliation and unity. Why do we do this? Why do I need to know the four spiritual laws but do not need to know how to live Galatians 3:28? Thank you ladies. Chelsea; I am inspired to know that those outside seminary and other institutions also account for systemic evil. I agree that as much as we may desire a single soul saved, we cannot reduce our efforts to those who subscribe to our “system”, because we do so often turn our faith into a system, our churches into factories and our brothers and sisters into stepping stones to spiritual ascension. While we know hypothetically that racism exists I am still unconvinced as Chelsea said that our churches are in the business of self reflection of biases. While we overtly encourage memorization of scripture and attending Sunday service we subvert and ignore questions of reconciliation and unity. Why do we do this? Why do I need to know the four spiritual laws but do not need to know how to live Galatians 3:28?

]]> By: Kelsi http://consumingjesus.org/2009/04/05/jesus-changing-the-world-one-heart-one-structure-at-a-time/comment-page-1/#comment-387 Kelsi Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:52:04 +0000 http://consumingjesus.org/2009/04/05/jesus-changing-the-world-one-heart-one-structure-at-a-time/#comment-387 Thank you Chelsea for your feedback. I agree with your sentiments, it is necessary to carefully consider the implications that we predominantly hear "individual" oriented sermons in churches, and we focus on the outward, behavioral over the inward and heart issues (which manifest themselves in and through relationships). These two things definitely feed into the challenge that we have as believers to transform the way we engage social and structural ills. As you said, "for centuries societies have 'used' Christianity to authorize many injustices". It may take years, centuries, but I am committed to see that change--to see the voice of Christianity be recognized as one of a liberating and justice-loving faith of a redeeming Lord. Imagine the possibility. Thank you Chelsea for your feedback. I agree with your sentiments, it is necessary to carefully consider the implications that we predominantly hear “individual” oriented sermons in churches, and we focus on the outward, behavioral over the inward and heart issues (which manifest themselves in and through relationships). These two things definitely feed into the challenge that we have as believers to transform the way we engage social and structural ills. As you said, “for centuries societies have ‘used’ Christianity to authorize many injustices”. It may take years, centuries, but I am committed to see that change–to see the voice of Christianity be recognized as one of a liberating and justice-loving faith of a redeeming Lord. Imagine the possibility.

]]> By: Chelsea Pang http://consumingjesus.org/2009/04/05/jesus-changing-the-world-one-heart-one-structure-at-a-time/comment-page-1/#comment-386 Chelsea Pang Mon, 06 Apr 2009 05:43:51 +0000 http://consumingjesus.org/2009/04/05/jesus-changing-the-world-one-heart-one-structure-at-a-time/#comment-386 Great post! Im Rachel's sister. When I think of those who don't want to mix structural issues with spiritural, I think of the excuses mounted by many in our country to resist the civil rights movement. If our Christian African American citizens did not demand justice, demand policies that reflect love and Christian ideals, then we might still have Jim Crow and rampant racial injustices. Now, we are not cured from our societal evils, we will always struggle and so we must always advocate for, as you say so well, both structural and personal spiritual accountablility. My other degree is in sociology and I tend to look at the world that way, that people are motivated by social variables. For centuries societies have 'used' Christianity to authorize many injustices. As Christians we sin and are influenced negatively by our surroundings and are misguided, to hate gays, to not help the poor because they deserve it, to go to war against another religion or for oil (whatever), to want people to be Christians but not serve them, to excuse ourselves from supporting the policies that help the poor, sick and hungry because 'the government isn't our help', to focus on the behavior of non-Christians instead of saving their heart on issues like abortion, drug use, extramarital sex and to 'believe' in capitalism as if it is a Christain ideal. K, so to answer your questions: Do you see as problematic the belief that race problems automatically disappear once people get converted? Yes! Because it is not true...we have to work very hard just to not continue to sin on the basic areas of our life. We will not realize the racism in our hearts unless it is revealed to us. Church-talk usually isn't in the business of asking their congregations to self-reflect on their biases. Additionally, modern style of Christianity is becoming very individualistic, so sermons are focused on how to improve our lives instead of how to improve our impact on other's lives. How important is conversion to the healing of race problems? We will always have sin and will always have non-believers. But we do not need to always have institutional and structural racism. For the salvation of individual souls, yes conversion is imperative to start the work of healing a racist heart. But we can also make that racist heart not do racist things with policies, until they are converted:) How important to race reconciliation is the addressing of structural problems? If I understand the question correctly, race reconciliation requires Christians who know the love of Christ and his standards for how we treat each other, to lead the work of addressing the structural problems Have you witnessed people in communities who are balancing rightful concern for personal conversion with conversion of social structures in addressing race problems? I don't think so... Do you see things in your own life that are at odds with promoting reconciliation and sacrificial love of “the other”? Yes, the way I spend my money and use resources, meaning I could donate more and not buy products from systems that perpetual poverty and injustice. In the power of Christ’s transforming love, what steps can you take both inside and outside the church, to overturn structures that reinforce race and class divisions? Talk about it, pray, vote, engage my representatives. There should be more but I ran out of thoughts. Looking forward to hearing what other's say... Chelsea Pang Great post! Im Rachel’s sister. When I think of those who don’t want to mix structural issues with spiritural, I think of the excuses mounted by many in our country to resist the civil rights movement. If our Christian African American citizens did not demand justice, demand policies that reflect love and Christian ideals, then we might still have Jim Crow and rampant racial injustices. Now, we are not cured from our societal evils, we will always struggle and so we must always advocate for, as you say so well, both structural and personal spiritual accountablility. My other degree is in sociology and I tend to look at the world that way, that people are motivated by social variables. For centuries societies have ‘used’ Christianity to authorize many injustices. As Christians we sin and are influenced negatively by our surroundings and are misguided, to hate gays, to not help the poor because they deserve it, to go to war against another religion or for oil (whatever), to want people to be Christians but not serve them, to excuse ourselves from supporting the policies that help the poor, sick and hungry because ‘the government isn’t our help’, to focus on the behavior of non-Christians instead of saving their heart on issues like abortion, drug use, extramarital sex and to ‘believe’ in capitalism as if it is a Christain ideal.

K, so to answer your questions:
Do you see as problematic the belief that race problems automatically disappear once people get converted?

Yes! Because it is not true…we have to work very hard just to not continue to sin on the basic areas of our life. We will not realize the racism in our hearts unless it is revealed to us. Church-talk usually isn’t in the business of asking their congregations to self-reflect on their biases. Additionally, modern style of Christianity is becoming very individualistic, so sermons are focused on how to improve our lives instead of how to improve our impact on other’s lives.

How important is conversion to the healing of race problems?

We will always have sin and will always have non-believers. But we do not need to always have institutional and structural racism. For the salvation of individual souls, yes conversion is imperative to start the work of healing a racist heart. But we can also make that racist heart not do racist things with policies, until they are converted:)

How important to race reconciliation is the addressing of structural problems?

If I understand the question correctly, race reconciliation requires Christians who know the love of Christ and his standards for how we treat each other, to lead the work of addressing the structural problems

Have you witnessed people in communities who are balancing rightful concern for personal conversion with conversion of social structures in addressing race problems?

I don’t think so…

Do you see things in your own life that are at odds with promoting reconciliation and sacrificial love of “the other”?

Yes, the way I spend my money and use resources, meaning I could donate more and not buy products from systems that perpetual poverty and injustice.

In the power of Christ’s transforming love, what steps can you take both inside and outside the church, to overturn structures that reinforce race and class divisions?

Talk about it, pray, vote, engage my representatives. There should be more but I ran out of thoughts. Looking forward to hearing what other’s say…

Chelsea Pang

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